The Galley Beggar Q&A: Noémi Kiss-Deáki
i. the book…
TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MARY AND THE RABBIT DREAM: HOW YOU FIRST LEARNED ABOUT MARY TOFT’S STORY (AS WELL AS A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WHAT THAT STORY IS), AND WHEN IT FIRST BEGAN TO TAKE SHAPE AS A NOVEL.
My first time encountering Mary Toft’s story was when I was about fourteen or fifteen, reading a historical magazine. There was a section about historical curiosities, I think, and that week’s historical curiosity was a little text about a doctor being called out to a woman and being much perplexed when she gave birth to seven rabbits. The note ended with the conclusion that the woman, Mary Toft, had put these rabbits up inside her vagina, possibly to gain attention and earn money. I had so many questions (But why?! How?!). I also thought these were living rabbits (the text didn’t elaborate on this part) and was horrified. And I think this is what most people have heard about it, if anything at all – a weird eighteenth century woman performing this grotesque hoax where she fooled everyone that she could give birth to rabbits. A couple of years later I listened to a podcast that told her story and also highlighted some of the ‘ickiness’ in this case (Mary Toft being locked up in a bath house – and later bullied and threatened to confess). Much later, I read historian Karen Harvey’s book The Imposteress Rabbit Breeder – Mary Toft and Eighteenth-Century England, where Harvey really digs deep into the case with a compassionate eye and a sincere effort to retrieve what might have been Mary Toft’s experience. She highlights Mary’s trauma and how much her case exposed the deeply unequal society of that time (and also why Mary Toft was, most likely, an unwilling protagonist in the whole thing). One of the themes I frequently come back to in my writing is powerlessness and what it looks and feels like. How and why it happens. What it does to people (both on a societal level, but also on an individual level). After reading Harvey’s book I got the sense that Mary was very powerless in a way that has not been explored very much in earlier research or fiction.
WHEN WE FIRST STARTED TO READ MARY AND THE RABBIT DREAM, WE WERE BLOWN AWAY BY WHAT WE FELT WAS ITS SINGULAR VOICE – AND ALSO ITS FURIOUS, UNCEASING CONDEMNATION OF BOTH A VICIOUS CLASS-SYSTEM AND SOCIETY’S ABUSE OF WOMEN (INJUSTICES THAT IN MANY WAYS CONTINUE TODAY). WAS IT THIS THAT ATTRACTED YOU – THE WIDER THEMES, AS SUCH – OR MORE THE INDIVIDUAL CHARACTERS AND THE STRANGENESS OF THE STORY ITSELF?
As mentioned, it was Karen Harvey’s book that first opened my eyes to what an important role class played in this event, as well as trauma. But my way into creating the story itself was the powerlessness that seemed to have surrounded the historical Mary Toft – I would say this was the core theme that motivated me, and any other themes really just came organically as I started to write. As for characters, my interest in them came later. When I tried to articulate Mary's powerlessness I turned my eye to the people around her – I asked myself, why is Mary powerless? When someone is powerless, others often have more power than they ought to have. So: Who were these people that exercised power over Mary, at her expense, and why? In her book, Harvey makes a strong case for the community of senior women around Mary playing an important role in the rabbit hoax. So I was inspired by this insight to develop the characters of Mary’s mother-in-law Ann Toft, Ann Toft’s sister, Mary’s sister-in-law and the wife of the knife-grinder. And then, of course, came the male doctors and elite circles. I wanted to get inside their heads, get a sense of their inner worlds. How did they live? How did they feel in these lives? How did they rationalize treating someone like Mary so poorly? What motivated them (and, at times, made them blind) to abuse? The more I wrote, the angrier I got! So, I guess, that is what you’re saying in this question – and I am very happy I have managed to communicate my anger!
A WOMAN GIVING BIRTH TO RABBITS IS OF COURSE ABSURD, AND YOU LEAN INTO THAT ABSURDITY (PARTICULARLY IN THE CHARACTERISATION OF YOUR MALE CHARACTERS). TELL US A BIT MORE ABOUT THAT. ... DID YOU HAVE FUN?
Actually, yes! Paradoxically, I’ve just described my anger, and themes that are as far from ‘fun’ as you can get…. But it is also an absurd (and sometimes absurdly funny) case – as well as one that provoked a lot of hilarity, jokes and satire in its own time. There were several ingredients in Mary’s story (women’s bodies; the at times questionable reputation of doctors and man-midwives; the authority of nobles and even the king himself…) that, for whatever reason, encouraged people in eighteenth century England not just to laugh, but to unleash pent-up frustrations and tensions. You can see this in the literature and drawings that were published. I feel I was able to do the same in this novel – release a lot of pent-up frustrations and tensions caused by our society, our time – because, as you say, many of the themes of Mary and the Rabbit Dream continue to have resonance. I also employ a lot of dark humour, innuendo and wordplay – and what I hope I’ve created is a modern satire which also offers compassion and space for Mary (who was not offered such kindnesses in her own time).
WHO IS YOUR FAVOURITE CHARACTER IN THE NOVEL, AND WHO WAS THE MOST FUN TO WRITE?
Oh! That would be the royal anatomist Nathanael St André. He became (in)famous for being the most credulous person in this case – although some have suggested he was just in it for fame and drama. Whatever the reality, which is lost to us now, I have chosen to present him as the most ardent believer of the rabbit birth (just as he appears to be in his own pamphlet). In my novel he is impulsive, wears his heart on his sleeve, is quite unbridled and all over the place. I didn’t expect to grow quite so fond of him as I did, but once he started to live as a character on the pages of Mary and the Rabbit Dream, that is what happened… He was also the most fun to write – his exuberance, his desperation, his futile passions… In my novel St André is just so much want. He is a frustrated character.
I also enjoyed writing Sir Richard Manningham; and once he started to grow into one of the more antagonistic characters in Mary and the Rabbit Dream, I had more and more of a bone to pick with him.
DO YOU HAVE A WRITING ROUTINE? WHEN AND HOW DO YOU GET THINGS DOWN ON PAPER? (ALSO, HOW LONG DID IT TAKE TO WRITE MARY AND THE RABBIT DREAM?)
I can’t say I have much of a routine (at least not a good one). My writing has been piecemeal and fragmental with occasional bursts of just pure flow. An overwhelming majority of my work has been written on the notes app on my phone in little breaks; sometimes while walking to work, in stolen moments, squeezed in between work and parenting… whenever possible. With Mary and the Rabbit Dream I tried to develop more of a routine, since writing on my phone became too distracting and chaotic. I decided to only write on my laptop (and the moment my child had fallen asleep). And yes, that worked – but it also meant that I wrote late into the night. Which means loss of sleep, which means less energy the next day, etc… In my most creative periods I haven’t been able to stop: I had to write, I had to get it down and get it out, so it (and with ‘it’ I mean idea, story, compulsion) would leave me alone and be done, finally. But it has not been very sustainable. It is a candle burnt at both ends. My creativity is slower and less frantic lately (it has been overwhelming – in the best sense of the word – to actually have something published, with all the work that goes into it) and this, right now, is a relief. … But writing like this has also the only way I know how to do it – short, mad bursts of intensity that I will have to make up for later, mentally and physically, while trying to function the best I can in the rest of my life.
As to how long Mary and the Rabbit Dream took to write – the original manuscript took two weeks of feverish, late-night writing. I have come to understand this is very quick and not usual. I don’t know what to say to this other than that most of what I have written I have usually finished in a matter of days, weeks or a couple of months at most, and of all my novel length manuscripts Mary and the Rabbit Dream is the shortest.
EDITING. DO YOU EDIT AS YOU GO, OR DO YOU WAIT UNTIL YOU’VE GOT A FULL DRAFT IN FRONT OF YOU? (… HOW MUCH DO YOU CUT? OR REWRITE?)
My dark secret is not much at all – not if editing means revising each sentence, searching for words and rewording things, making dramatic changes to story and plot. I am also not good at drafts, giving it time, letting it sit. Obviously, one big thing – I write in English, and since English is my third language, I try to check everything to see that I haven’t written something weird, language-wise, and that there aren’t too many grammatical brain-glitches. But, with fiction, I’m generally happy with what I’ve created and I don’t feel the need to edit a lot. I very rarely cut things or completely rewrite. I think a lot of editing for me is mental and happens pre-writing, when I am in the ideas stage. That’s when I jot down ideas, sentences, scenes and dialogue, the framework, overall plot ideas… Then, there is a lot of buzz in my head as I think things through – although how much of that makes it into the actual story, once I start to write, is different every time.
Where I do edit, the editing of the text is usually more a matter of fleshing out some scenes or adding details here or there to explain something more. If there are dates and logical, chronological things to pay attention to I try to be mindful of them also (and will revisit them because I tend to overlook and miss things when logic is involved). After a couple of months have passed, I might – might – return and discover some inconsistency, or plot hole somewhere that I need to correct.
AND ONE MORE THING THAT SEEMS PERTINENT TO MARY AND THE RABBIT DREAM AND HISTORICAL FICTION IN GENERAL: HOW IMPORTANT IS STICKING TO ‘THE FACTS’?
That is a good question! I think the answer might be different for every writer of historical fiction. I am still quite new to the concept of historical fiction as an author and exploring my relationship with it – and in Mary and the Rabbit Dream it was important to me to stick to certain facts (such as certain dates, events, places). One of my favourite things is also to make really small things historically accurate – like the exact ingredients in the strengthening beverages St André receives while ill, or which day of the week something happened. I tried to be quite faithful to historical chronology and events in the grand scheme of Mary and the Rabbit Dream (with some wild leaps and preposterous inventions here and there). I like the idea of people reading my novel and then looking up the facts and discovering that a lot of things have been faithfully depicted, or alluded to, mentioned, nodded at (or, in some cases, revamped). But then again, I might do something entirely different the next time I feel the inclination to write something historical. A couple of years ago I read a Swedish historical novel that fictionalized Händel’s life – a life which was, according to all known historical records, famously uneventful and unassuming. But that author decided to just go wild and invented this incredibly rich, chaotic, decadent and crazy life for him. I love that – to just take a little crumb of a historical event or person and imagine something spectacular and improbable out of it, and in total irreverence to anything we might view as facts. (The Swedish novel in question here is Mitt grymma öde (‘My cruel fate’) by Carl-Micheal Edenborg.)
TELL US ABOUT ONE OF YOUR BAD WRITING HABITS. ANY TICS?
Ha! So this would be the impatience that causes me to just drop and move on once I am done writing and feel content with something. I wish I had more patience to mull over my texts and let them brew and dwell in their worlds a little more – let them sit for a longer time and not feel that I am ‘done’ so quickly. (Because I don’t imagine everything I have written is flawless; it’s more that I have difficulty containing my creative restlessness.)
OTHER WRITERS. NAME SOME FAVOURITES.
I have for a long time adored Swedish author Per Olov Enquist. I discovered him first as a teenager (through The Royal Physician's Visit and The Book of Blanche and Marie) and he has been an influence on both my own style and the kind of tone and language I search for in literature. I also love Elfriede Jelinek, her wit, sharpness and dark, ironic eye (esp. in Women as Lovers). Leo Tolstoy completely floored me many years ago and still does. (Anna Karenina!) Swedish author Selma Lagerlöf, absolutely wonderful. I have also enjoyed Roberto Bolaño, Juli Zeh, Sofi Oksanen and Magda Szabó. Henrik Ibsen is another favourite and I appreciate the critical eye he casts on his own times. Vladimir Nabokov and Gabrielle Wittkop are authors I have come to appreciate very recently. And Frances Hardinge and Margo Lanagan. The way they handle the English language – poetically and hauntingly, in children’s books and books for young adults – is just magical.
AND WHAT ARE YOU READING AT THE MOMENT?
Right now I am nibbling away at Ruth Scurr’s Fatal Purity – Robespierre and the French Revolution and Leonora Carrington’s The Hearing Trumpet. One is a historical biography and the other one is (so far, I have not read much yet) one of the best things I have read in a long while.
DO YOU EVER IMAGINE YOUR IDEAL READER? (OR: WHO WOULD YOU MOST LIKE TO WRITE YOU A FAN LETTER ABOUT MARY AND THE RABBIT DREAM)?
It is still surreal to me that I have readers. But I think my ideal reader would be someone who appreciates and is moved by what I have written. Who ‘gets’ and enjoys it (and by ‘it’ I mean, humour, tone, feeling) … that would be the greatest gift. But really, I am happy for any and all readers. I have readers! That is a luxury.
II. THE WORLD…
WHAT GETS YOU MAD?
Everything, right now. The futileness of the world. The brutality. The regurgitation and repetition of history and the worst aspects of human life and society, again and again and again. It is unending.
WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY?
To be understood. To be able to give something (an experience, comfort, understanding, inspiration) to someone else. To make myself useful. Mutual joy. Revamped remixes of Baroque music. Old art. Surprising my child with something she loves. A clean kitchen counter.
YOU’RE IN CHARGE OF EVERYTHING. WHAT’S THE FIRST THING YOU DO? AND WHAT’S THE BIG SIGNATURE PROGRAM YOU’D PUT IN PLACE TO MAKE THE WORLD BETTER? (NB: NO VIOLENCE! THIS IS A PEACEFUL TAKEOVER.)
I will invite the reader to view the following as a little fairy tale for adults, because in reality, I am deeply pessimistic and deeply cynical regarding the world and any progress in it. To view the following as a little tale might also excuse some inevitable naïveté, idealism and oversimplification;
First thing: A machine will be created that would destroy all weapons and any instruments of harm in this world, bringing all wars to a halt with immediate effect. Once done, the machine itself will be destroyed (so as to not accidentally cause more harm or fall into the wrong hands). All people in charge and the wealthiest percent of the world will then be dethroned (peacefully) and their wealth and possessions redistributed and directed to countries and situations where the need is the most acute. All other things can wait. Once this is done and the most acute needs have been sufficiently taken care of, any wealth that remains will be poured into research and science, to come up with speedy solutions to save the climate in smart, ingenious and energy-effective ways. Simultaneously there will be measures taken to extinguish all famine and medical crises in the world. All institutions that work for the health and welfare of populations will be evaluated on whether they are actually achieving what they say they want to achieve or not. If not, new methods will be created to achieve their goals. Somewhere in all this there will also be steps taken to consider a different economic system to the one built on capitalism, exploitation and the exchange of money (the concept of money itself is going to need reconsideration also). The political systems of all societies around the globe will also have to go through some substantial reforms. These reforms will cut people some slack and be built on the assumption that most people want to be useful, want to feel good, want to thrive and want what’s beneficial for both themselves and others. (Of course, this is not always the case, but these systems will accept a minority of rule-breakers and anomalies, etc, as long as the overall population can continue to relax and not be oppressed and diminished by systemic distrust, harsh laws or control).
The reader will notice there has not been an actual announcement of a big signature program, with big principles or grand words. This is because words on paper and documents will have less importance in this brave new world than actual actions and measures. Words and grand ideas on paper can always be twisted in all sorts of ways to paint a picture of reality that is not true. Pretty words will no longer be permitted to disguise an ugly reality. So, the important thing will not be an ‘ism’, but what is actually happening and the measures taken. These will have to be continuously evaluated to make sure one group is not exploiting another or that needless suffering is not caused to one group to benefit a tiny percentage of the population elsewhere.
WHAT EXACTLY IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE?
Having their heads up their asses.
ANY CAUSE FOR HOPE?
I suppose one might see humanity as a big organism that strives to live. And in this striving to live, it will try to not destroy itself. If this is the case, perhaps there will be some stirring or quickening that compels it to – eventually – direct its energies towards some sort of equilibrium, and to decreasing or even bringing a halt to those things that bringing so much destruction. (But this, to me, is wishful thinking.)
III. ON A DIFFERENT NOTE…
TELL US ABOUT SOMETHING FUN TO DO (IN ONE SENTENCE).
Go to Budapest, find a stand that sells kürtőskalács – you will recognize these sweets as they are being wrapped around a baking spit to achieve their cylindrical form, after which they are rolled in sugar and an additional flavour of your choosing – buy one of these and devour it whole.
WHAT’S THE WORST PIECE OF WRITING ADVICE YOU’VE EVER RECEIVED?
Any advice that tells me how to write, what form to use, what tense to use (or not to use) etc… Tiresome.
DONALD TRUMP HAS JUST WALKED INTO THE SAME RESTROOM AS YOU, AND LEFT A WHOLE STACK OF (IRREPARABLY DAMNING) PAPERS ON THE SINK. WHAT DO YOU DO?
I started to imagine this, and my instinctive answer was to write ‘nothing’ because I don’t think anything he does can really have a lasting impact on his popularity – but then I noticed ‘irreparably’ so I am going to imagine that (in this universe) there might be something that really can be irreparably damning to Donald Trump. So! I think I would throw a big party and invite all of his supporters and investors and best friends and powerful allies and believers and helpers – and really just every imaginable person, group, lobby and expected and unexpected organisation and person that supports him –and disclose these documents, blown up on a big screen, so all the aforementioned people can really, really take them in.
After this, one can watch the consequences unfold while ingesting popcorn.
YOU’RE NOT A WRITER, YOU’RE A SILVER-SCREEN FILM-STAR. WHICH ONE ARE YOU?
Oh! Can I have two? It would be either the Swedish silent film actor Lars Hanson or the American silent film actress Lilian Gish. I adore the way they were both able to communicate such depth and range of emotion in their acting in an era before speech in film existed.
SAME AGAIN – ONLY THIS TIME, YOU’RE NOT A HUMAN, YOU’RE A FURRY ANIMAL. WHICH ONE IS IT?
Badger.
NEIL GAIMAN OR TERRY PRATCHETT?
I actually haven’t read that many books by either of them – only one or two, a long time ago! But I do have some unread Terry Pratchetts in my bookshelf and think I would enjoy him a lot if I were to revisit him (actually, now I want to). So, Pratchett…!
VIRGINIA WOOLF OR JAMES JOYCE?
I have read more by Woolf than Joyce but have loved what I have read by both. Can’t choose!
BACON ROLL OR FRIED EGG SANDWICH?
Are these British dishes? (I had to use google.) I grew up on Hungarian and Scandinavian cuisine, so I am unfamiliar with both of them. Not that they look like complicated dishes, and both look tasty! I am just not sure which I would prefer.
COFFEE OR TEA?
Both have their time and place. Coffee is heavy and tea is calm. I appreciate both. (I am not a good chooser.)
CAN YOU THINK OF A BETTER QUESTION TO END ON THAN THIS?
No! I think I am quite done! : )